Dump of the HTML file of our discussion at “France – Stop Supporting Russian Invasion”, later deleted by the organizers

Dimitri Halby
July 14 at 2:55pm · Cork, Ireland

We will advertise your event on https://www.facebook.com/NoMistralsForPutin tomorrow (more efficient, a bit late here today to do so).

We have a project of short messages to France against the Mistral deal under the form of 30 secs max videos. The more languages and nationalities we get, the better and if you can shoot a video in front of French Ambassy or French symbol, even better. If you want to be part of it, record your videos, then send us an email to know how to proceed. Thanks.
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Yesterday at 6:20am · Like
Dimitri Halby Hahaha, you’re funny Vlad, a touch of humour is always welcome, thanks
7 mins · Like
Dimitri Halby To be exact, I think you refer to the image on top of this event, right? This one is to remind people of their moral values that were written into the constitution after the revolution. I am French and one of the articles in our constitution says explicitly that it is our duty as citizens to rebel against the president and expel him if this one is making moves against the interests of his own people. I would actually make another parallel on that as Ukrainian people rebelled against Yanukovitch because of his excessive use of corruption (those before him were not really better but he managed to do worse). French people would have done the same, at least I hope! As for the war after a revolution, yes, you can expect it. After 1789, the countries around France got scared that the same thing happen in their country and they declared war to France which was in a weak condition. Putin did the same one week after Yanukovitch flew away. The events in Ukraine scared him as it opened a possibility that it could also happen in Russia. History repeats itself
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Dimitri Halby You misunderstood what I said. I put it again: “one of the articles in our constitution says explicitly that it is our duty as citizens to rebel against the president and expel him if this one is making moves against the interests of his own people.”.

Here it is:

Article 11: Any act directed against a person, apart from the cases and without the forms determined by law, is arbitrary and tyrannical; if attempt is made to execute such act by force, the person who is the object thereof has the right to resist it by force.

Article 33-35: Resistance to oppression is the consequence of the other rights of man. There is oppression against the social body when a single one of its members is oppressed. There is oppression against every member when the social body is oppressed. When the government violates the rights of the people, insurrection is for the people, and for every portion thereof, the most sacred of rights and the most indispensable of duties.

And let me stress this one again: “When the government violates the rights of the people, insurrection is for the people, and for every portion thereof, the most sacred of rights and the most indispensable of duties.” there you go, if we have an oppressor like Yanukovitch one day, you can be almost certain that French people will kick him out, it is our duty!
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Dimitri Halby Sorry but I am French and we learn it at school…
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Dimitri Halby Anyway, time to sleep, late here, we’ll talk about this later if you want
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Dimitri Halby ) I disagree with the term neo nazis, I happened to be on Maidan on the night of 21/22 of february (can’t help it, I’m French and part of my family lives in Russian speaking part of Ukraine) and I have not seen a sign of neo nazism there. You have certainly seen it in newspapers, don’t trust the press, trust your eyes only I saw what RT showed just after yanukovitch flew away: fights and bloods in the streets of Kiev. That was a pure joke, the city was finally calm, I witnessed it. I know not to trust anything from Russian medias since then

2) He would have been slaughtered if he had stayed: If he had been in france, he might have been killed yes, of course, it is our duty to rebel and a crowd is always hard to control. It is pretty hard to have revolution or war without blood, does it make sense to you?

Now I really have to go to sleep, I have a protest against Putin’s propaganda tomorrow, talk soon.
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Dimitri Halby Oh, didn’t see you last post sorry, yes, we learn that if the president is acting against the interests of his own people, we should kick him out and rebel, our duty as I said. Why should we not? French is the country of revolution, we didn’t get rid of criminals at the power to accept new one, that’s all.
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Dimitri Halby You keep on not reading my comments or you don’t want to read them maybe? Where did I say that it is written in the constitution that he will be killed? No, angry crowd is hard to control, it is better not to but during a revolution, that can happen yes, it did happen during some of the French revolutions. Anyway, enough of this nice chatting with you, off to bed, enjoy your day/night
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Dimitri Halby It is quite funny how you don’t understand the concept of rebellion against repression I know, i know, Putin did not get you used to the concept. He is a good example of somebody French people would kick out of by the way with his repressive laws lately.

It looks like you are praising repression for protests by your videos, up to you but if it is part of the game to be beaten/arrested by the police during a protest in France, as soon as some people are killed, the French government is in a bad position and they do know that it is the limit, so they usually don’t go to that extent.

Again, you’re not reading completely, let me put back the complete answer, reading only a piece of an information is RT news way of informing you but you should not apply it to yourself deliberately: “If he had been in france, he might have been killed yes, of course, it is our duty to rebel and a crowd is always hard to control. It is pretty hard to have revolution or war without blood, does it make sense to you?”. So, let me stress out the last question for you and I will let you answer this one: “it is pretty hard to have revolution or war without blood, does it make sense to you?”

A democracy model is only viable under constant surveillance of its citizen, if you put up a democracy and let anybody change it into totalitarism only because it is not written in your law/constitution that if somebody kills your mother or neighbour you have to rebel, you are just plain stupid, don’t you think so?

So, basically, this is a good thing that it is taught to French people that they have to keep an eye on what their government is doing and kick them out if they are abusing their powers. But in a few other countries like Russia, people should be educated this way too. Unfortunately, they are used to repression and no independent thinking…

Your last question: “Please post ANY document that says that it is opposition demonstrators’ duty to rebel against democratically elected French Presidents just because they don’t like his decisions.”. I am talking about something harder than “they don’t like his decision”. Either you don’t understand the concept or you are trying to put it mildly so I will put again and again what I wrote earlier: “Article 11: Any act directed against a person, apart from the cases and without the forms determined by law, is arbitrary and tyrannical; if attempt is made to execute such act by force, the person who is the object thereof has the right to resist it by force.

Article 33-35: Resistance to oppression is the consequence of the other rights of man. There is oppression against the social body when a single one of its members is oppressed. There is oppression against every member when the social body is oppressed. When the government violates the rights of the people, insurrection is for the people, and for every portion thereof, the most sacred of rights and the most indispensable of duties.

And let me stress this one again: “When the government violates the rights of the people, insurrection is for the people, and for every portion thereof, the most sacred of rights and the most indispensable of duties.” there you go, if we have an oppressor like Yanukovitch one day, you can be almost certain that French people will kick him out, it is our duty!”.

This comes from the French Constitution of 1793, you can look it up if you don’t believe me.

You have examples of this kind of law in other countries, it is not French specific for example: “The Charter of Fundamental Rights and Freedoms, a part of the constitutional systems of both the Czech Republic and Slovak Republic, states in Article 23:
Citizens have the right to resist anybody who would do away with the democratic order of human rights and fundamental freedoms, established by this Charter, if the actions of constitutional bodies or the effective use of legal means have been frustrated.

And internationally: “The third paragraph of the preamble to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights states:
Whereas it is essential, if man is not to be compelled to have recourse, as a last resort, to rebellion against tyranny and oppression, that human rights should be protected by rule of law.[

But as I said, you shouldn’t need a law to understand that if you are repressed and your government is acting against its own people’s interests (big corruption, killing during a protest, etc), you should kick him out to ensure democracy will stay and no autocratic system such as Putin’s one will come…
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Микита Сафроненко Pls ignore Vatnik’s posts
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Dimitri Halby Oh no, it is quite entertaining to educate him to rebel against a repressive system, you can read my answers and his replies
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Dimitri Halby But if you think it is preferable not to answer, I can stop of course
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Michal Kurela Vlad rutenberg, i believe we need to stress one thing out loud: today in fact the only fascists I see increasing in europe are those actively supported by Russian Federation; ie Front National in France and it is Russia that meddle in a hostile way with european affairs that do not concern her. Also we hear about chechenyan terrorists in donbas found between the victims of antiterrorist operation: they came for holidays there or what ? Putin finances and materially supports international terrorism and do not worry, the time will come that russian government will be tried for its current crimes.
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Vlad Rutenburg Dimitri Halby, the owners of this page have deleted all my posts. On the one hand, it makes glad, because they are acknowledging that they cannot refute my arguments and can only hide them from the readers. On the other hand, these geniuses have made it look like you are arguing with yourself or with a Holy Ghost. Let me re-post them, notify various FB discussion groups to watch this, and let’s see how quickly these goons will delete my posts this time.
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Vlad Rutenburg > Oh no, it is quite entertaining to educate him to rebel against a repressive system, you can read my answers and his replies

No, he can’t. His cohorts, who profess to love “European values”, can’t tolerate the freedom of speech and have deleted all my posts. These are the people you seem to support!
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Vlad Rutenburg Here come my re-posts:
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Vlad Rutenburg Vlad Rutenburg 3:54pm Jul 16
Wait a second. Before the Revolution, France had no democracy whatsoever. Are you telling us that Ukraine, which has been a Western-style constitutional democracy since 1992, has been a dictatorship? So, what was your President Yushchenko? A King? A dictator? And why is your new government, which consists of a mixture of corrupt criminal oligarchs and neo-nazis, any better?

Are you also saying that Ukraine is going to elect a new Napoleon and then wage a war and occupy all of Europe, as France did after its revolution? And they are going to burn Moscow, like Napoleon did? And then they want the Russian troops to conquer Kiev, like Paris, and appoint their king there? Is anybody here familiar with the French history?
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Vlad Rutenburg 4:04pm Jul 16
Thanks, Dimitri. But my humorous post has a serious thought to it: the French revolution happened because the French people had no say in who rules them. But Ukraine is already a democracy (was, before February 2014), and in a democracy, you don’t change presidents through violent revolutions. And if you do, you should expect a counterrevolution and a civil war from those who defend democracy and the constitution.
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Vlad Rutenburg 4:20pm Jul 16
Dimitri Halby, I very much doubt that the French constitution says that any group, that doesn’t like some decisions by their President, has the right to overthrow him in a violent revolution. Since every president in every country makes controversial decisions, that are opposed by almost half of the country, on a monthly basis, we would have non-stop bloody revolutions here in the USA, in EU and everywhere else. For example, do you think that the Tea Party and/or Occupy Wall Street protesters have the right to start spilling blood conquer the White House and the Congress and to overthrow President Obama?
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Vlad Rutenburg 4:26pm Jul 16
As far as corruption goes, the Ukrainian people have chosen a government that is a combination of criminal corrupt oligarchs like Kolomoysky, Poroshenko and Tmoshenko and neo-nazis from Svoboda and even Batkivschina. 6 minsters are neo-nazis, and the rest represent oligarchs. In any case, to remove a corrupt president, you need to vote him out of office in the next elections, not flood streets with blood.
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Vlad Rutenburg 4:35pm Jul 16
Yanukovitch fled because heavily armed neo-nazi units of Parubiy and Yarosh attacked and conquered the Presidential building and all other government offices, and would have slaughtered him if he stayed there and surrendered to the neo-nazis:

After the signing of the Settlement Agreement to End Political Crisis in Ukraine by President Viktor Yanukovych and the opposition leaders on February 21, 2014 , on the night of February 21 to February 22 Maidan Self-defense units, led by Parubiya seized the government quarter in Kiev – the parliament building, the Presidential building, the Cabinet of Ministers and the Ministry of Internal Affairs, which was a brute violation of the agreement.

Позвольте представить читателям главного лидера Майдана, сделавшего революцию. Андре́я Влади́мировича Паруби́я, отца нео-нацизма на Украине, руковидителя Майдана с самого начала, сегоднящего Секретаря Совета национальной безопасности и обороны Украины, сопартийца Тягнибока и Яценюка, создателя партийного блока Батькивщина-Свобода-УДАР, и человека, пропустившего снайперов в майдановские здания, из которых те убили 17 “беркутов” и 88 своих же демонстрантов.

Андре́й Влади́мирович Паруби́й — украинский политик. Секретарь Совета национальной безопасности и обороны Украины с 27 февраля 2014. Член партии «Батькивщина». Народный депутат Украины. Комендант Евромайдана[1], руководитель Самообороны Майдана с ноября 2013 года по февраль 2014 года[2].

В 1991 году наряду с Олегом Тягнибоком был одним из основателей нео-нацистской Социал-национальной партии Украины (СНПУ), переименованной в 2004 во Всеукраинское объединение «Свобода»[5].

С ноября 2013 по февраль 2014 года координировал ежедневное функционирование «Евромайдана» (г. Киев, Площадь Независимости); выступал фактическим комендантом его палаточного лагеря и руководителем отрядов Самообороны Майдана[1].

После подписания президентом Украины Виктором Януковичем и лидерами оппозиции 21 февраля 2014 года Соглашения об урегулировании политического кризиса на Украине, в ночь с 21 февраля на 22 февраля отрядами Самообороны, под руководством Парубия, был взят под контроль правительственный квартал в Киеве — здания Верховной Рады, Администрации президента, Кабинета министров и МВД, что являлось нарушением только что подписанного соглашения.

2 марта 2014 года генерал-майор Александр Якименко, возглавлявший Службу безопасности Украины (СБУ) при президенте Викторе Януковиче, в ходе интервью на телеканале «Россия 1» заявил, что расстрелы обеих противоборствующих сторон (сотрудников «Беркута» и гражданских лиц от оппозиции) 20 февраля 2014 года неизвестными снайперами производились из здания «филармонии»[32], которое находилось под полным контролем сил оппозиции[33] и, в частности, так называемого «коменданта Майдана» Андрея Парубия, который после событий 21—22 февраля был назначен секретарём Совета национальной безопасности и обороны (СНБО) Украины.

Якименко отметил, что Парубий обладал всеми полномочиями по доступу к оружию на Майдане, и ни один пистолет, а тем более снайперская винтовка не могли быть внесены или вынесены за пределы площади.

Когда начались расстрелы, по словам Якименко, к нему обратились лидер «Правого сектора» Дмитрий Ярош и лидер партии «Свобода» Олег Тягнибок с просьбой использовать группу «Альфа» для зачистки зданий от снайперов. Однако для того, чтобы это сделать, нужно было получить согласие так называемого коменданта Майдана Андрея Парубия, иначе представители Майдана начали бы стрелять в спину сотрудникам «Альфы». Якименко запросил согласие Парубия на зачистку зданий от неизвестных снайперов, однако Парубий этому категорически воспрепятствовал.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andriy_Parubiy
Andriy Parubiy – Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
en.wikipedia.org
Andriy Volodymyrovych Parubiy (Ukrainian: Андрій Володимирович Парубій) is a Ukrainian politician[2] and the Secretary of the National Security and Defence Council of Ukraine, appointed after leading the anti-government protests in the 2014 Ukrainian revolution.[3]
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Vlad Rutenburg 4:41pm Jul 16
Dimitri Halby, what do you learn in school? That in a democracy, you should change presidents through bloody revolutions? Both in Ukriane and in the USA, the only way to remove a President is through a thorough and objective impeachment procedure. And I am sure the same is true for France.

“Under the Constitution, the President can be removed from the post by the Rada in the impeachment in case of high treason or other crimes. The removal of the President from Office by the procedure of impeachment is initiated by the majority of the constitutional composition of the Verkhovna Rada.

To investigate, the Verkhovna Rada must create an ad hoc temporary Commission of inquiry, which includes the Special Prosecutor and special investigators. If there are grounds for impeachment, there must be no less than two-thirds of the constitutional composition for the prosecution of the President of Ukraine.

After that, this case must be examined by the Constitutional Court of Ukraine, which must give an opinion on compliance with the constitutional procedures of investigation.

After that, the Supreme Court must considers the case. It should draw the conclusion that the acts attributable to the Ukrainian President, contain signs of treason or other crimes.

After that, decision to remove the President from Office by impeachment must be adopted by the Verkhovna Rada of not less than three quarters of its constitutional composition.”

http://www.kasparov.ru/note.php?id=4615F630DD466
Роспуск Рады и импичмент Президента. Статьи Конституции Украины Справки | Каспаров.Ru
http://www.kasparov.ru
В статье 90 украинской Конституции говорится лишь о трех случаях, при которых президент вправе распустить Раду. Президент Украины имеет право досрочно прекратить полномочия Верховной Рады Украины, если:
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Vlad Rutenburg 4:46pm Jul 16
> In france, he might have been killed yes, of course, it is our duty to rebel

Since you keep on saying this, please post what the French Constitution says about the opposition demonstrators’ duty to kill democratically elected French Presidents.
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Vlad Rutenburg > In france, he might have been killed yes, of course, it is our duty to rebel
> Where did I say that it is written in the constitution?

Please post ANY document that says that it is opposition demonstrators’ duty to rebel against democratically elected French Presidents just because they don’t like his decisions.

> and a crowd is always hard to control.

No, it isn’t. Both in the USA and EU demonstrations are always brutally but successfully disbanded after a few hours, through water cannons, tear gas, pepper gas and mass arrests. Democracy needs to be defended.


Play Video
Tear Gas, Water Cannon Used To Disperse Violent Brussels Protests
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Vlad Rutenburg 4:52pm Jul 16

Play Video
UC Davis Protestors Pepper Sprayed
Friday Nov. 18th at 4:54 PM Police pepper spray students who refused to move out of the way.
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Vlad Rutenburg http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PI3aXGkrnlM
Play Video
Riot police fire tear Gas at protesters in Rome
Italian police fired tear gas and water cannons Saturday in Rome as violent protesters turned a demonstration against corporate greed into a riot, smashing s…
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Vlad Rutenburg The 2010 G-20 Toronto summit protests began one week ahead of the summit of the leaders of the G-20 on 26-27 June in Toronto, Ontario, Canada. The protests were for various causes, including poverty and anti-capitalism. More than 20,000 police, military, and security personnel were involved in policing the protests. Over 1000 arrests were made, making it the largest number of mass arrest in Canadian history.[4]

http://en.wikipedia.org/…/2010_G-20_Toronto_summit…
2010 G-20 Toronto summit protests – Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
en.wikipedia.org
The 2010 G-20 Toronto summit protests began one week ahead of the summit of the leaders of the G-20 on 26-27 June in Toronto, Ontario, Canada. The protests were for various causes, including poverty and anti-capitalism. Protests mainly consisted of peaceful demonstrations and rallies but also took f…
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Vlad Rutenburg 4:52pm Jul 16
The UC Davis pepper-spray incident occurred on November 18, 2011, during an Occupy movement demonstration at the University of California, Davis. After asking the protesters to leave, University police pepper sprayed a group of demonstrators as they were seated on a paved path in the campus quad.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UC_Davis_pepper-spray_incident
UC Davis pepper-spray incident – Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
en.wikipedia.org
The UC Davis pepper-spray incident occurred on November 18, 2011, during an Occupy movement demonstration at the University of California, Davis. After asking the protesters to leave, University police pepper sprayed a group of demonstrators as they were seated on a paved path in the campus quad. Th…
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Vlad Rutenburg 4:53pm Jul 16

pbs.twimg.com
pbs.twimg.com
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Vlad Rutenburg 4:54pm Jul 16
A request for pictures of members of the New York Police Department went horribly wrong. WARNING: This post contains graphic photos of alleged police brutality.

http://www.buzzfeed.com/…/the-nypd-just-learned-a-very…
The NYPD Learned A Very Valuable Lesson About Asking The Internet To Use A Twitter Hashtag
http://www.buzzfeed.com
A request for pictures of members of the New York Police Department went horribly wrong. WARNING: This post contains graphic photos of alleged police brutality.
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Michal Kurela I believe the russians have overthrown their government in revolutionary way several times and somehow the legitimity was not their problem at that time as it is not a problem for them to praise the bloody Soviet revolution
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Vlad Rutenburg Vlad Rutenburg 4:58pm Jul 16
> In france, he might have been killed yes, of course, it is our duty to rebel
> Where did I say that it is written in the constitution?

Please post ANY document that says that it is opposition demonstrators’ duty to rebel against democratically elected French Presidents just because they don’t like his decisions.
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Vlad Rutenburg http://www.salon.com/…/occupy_activist_assaulted_by…/
Occupy activist assaulted by cop, faces seven years in prison
http://www.salon.com
Cecily McMillan’s ongoing ordeal with the NYPD is a reminder that radical dissent is still so necessary
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Vlad Rutenburg
Vlad Rutenburg 12:10am Jul 17
Dimitri Halby, let me first quote some of your statements that advocate hte citizens to take arms against what they consider to be an unjust government:

> educate him to rebel against a repressive system
> He would have been slaughtered if he had stayed: If he had been in france, he might have been killed yes, of course, it is our duty to rebel and a crowd is always hard to control. It is pretty hard to have revolution or war without blood, does it make sense to you?
> Article 33-35: Resistance to oppression is the consequence of the other rights of man. There is oppression against the social body when a single one of its members is oppressed. There is oppression against every member when the social body is oppressed. When the government violates the rights of the people, insurrection is for the people, and for every portion thereof, the most sacred of rights and the most indispensable of duties.
> yes, we learn that if the president is acting against the interests of his own people, we should kick him out and rebel, our duty as I said. Why should we not? French is the country of >revolution, we didn’t get rid of criminals at the power to accept new one, that’s all.
> angry crowd is hard to control, it is better not to but during a revolution, that can happen yes, it did happen during some of the French revolutions.
> It is quite funny how you don’t understand the concept of rebellion against repression
> So, let me stress out the last question for you and I will let you answer this one: “it is pretty hard to have revolution or war without blood, does it make sense to you?”

Vlad Rutenburg
Vlad Rutenburg 12:24am Jul 17
Dimitri Halby. Wow. You are so enthusiastic about the people’s right to rebel! So, why don’t you support the right of the people of the Eastern and Southern parts of Ukraine (Aka Novorossiya) to rebel against what they consider to be an illegal corrupt junta, that came to power unconstitutionally, through blood, and that, in their opinion, oppresses them? Rebel against a government that had 6 (six!) neo-nazis in top ministerial positions! As we say, “what’s good for the goose is good for the gander”.

The anti-Maidan people in Donetsk are doing exactly the same as what the pro-Maidan people did in Kiev and West Ukraine. Do you remember how the right wing extremists captured arms arsenals in West Ukriane and sent 2000 rifles to Maidan? And they occupied government buildings in West Ukraine. Remember how neo-nazis from the Right Sector and Maidan Self-defence used these arms to capture all government buildings in Kiev and to oust Yanukovich? So, why don’t you support the rebels in Novorossiya, who are doing exactly the same and exactly what you tell me to be their sacred duty as citizens?

If you want to understand what’s happening in Novorossiya and what can be done to stop the civil war, watch this civilized dialogue between 2 journalists (in Russian). I hope that even though you grew up in France, your parents taught you Russian:

Michal Kurela 11:49pm Jul 16
I believe the russians have overthrown their government in revolutionary way several times and somehow the legitimity was not their problem at that time as it is not a problem for them to praise the bloody Soviet revolution

Vlad Rutenburg
Vlad Rutenburg 12:36am Jul 17

Michal Kurela> I believe the russians have overthrown their government in revolutionary way several times

And I believe that:

1. The Bourgeois revolution in February 1917 was totally legal because it brought democracy and voting to Russia. Also, it was bloodless.

2. The Bolshevik revolution in October 1917 was totally illegal. It was a crime, a revolt against a democratic government, although not very bloody either. I wholeheartedly support the Czech and Russian White Armies that started a counterrevolution and went to war, a bloody war against Bolsheviks. And I am glad that France, UK and USA went to war on the side of the White army. I am very sad that they not only don’t support the counterrevolution in Ukraine, but actually support the right of the antidemocratic junta to drown Novorossiya in blood.

How about you, Michal? Do you support the Bolshevik Revolution in 1917? Do you oppose Petlyura’s rebellion against Bolsheviks in 1918 and his attempts to gain Ukriane’s independence from Communist Russia? Do you support the bloody way in which Communist Russia drowned Ukraine in blood and kept it as part of Bolshevik Russia? If not – then how can you the bloody way in which toda’s Kiev junta is drowning Novorossiya in blood to kept it as part of Maidan Ukraine?

> and somehow the legitimity was not their problem at that time

Are you kididing me? The October 1917 revolution led to a bloody Civil War that took millions of lives. Look it up, if they didn’t teach you about the Russian Civil War:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Civil_War

Ivan> Памятка для тех кто спорит с майданутыми и французами: “…about French Revolution- вот цитата:

The Reign of Terror” started around 15 months after the beginning of the French Revolution, when struggles between rival factions led to the people involved wanting to sort everything out. This led to violence and mass executions of enemies of the revolution.

The official start date of the Reign of Terror was 5th September 1793. The Reign of Terror was at it’s largest during June and July of 1794 when several members of the Reign of Terror were themselves executed. The Terror took the lives of about 40,000 French men and woman.”

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